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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2014.06.28 06:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits.
This is why (among other reasons) the Assault role needs to be defined by it's gank not it's tank. Give Assault suits a damage push that's native to the suit.
Nerfing scouts will no more make the Assault viable than nerfing Logi will make the assault viable. Even nerfting both will just mean that the heavy suits become the only worth while option.
Assault suits need both love and uniqueness, Without making them excel within a niche (LW dps output) they will remain in contention with too many other suits because of their current status as 'mid-range generalists'.
Revisiting balance after the assault suits get the touch ups they require will, in my view, be more effective than altering the scouts (or logis) before we know what changes will ultimately come to the assault suits.
Cheers,
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2014.06.28 16:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Cross Atu wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:Issue: Scouts and Assaults, even after the eventual buff to assaults suit, will have roles that are too similar.
Why? Because if there is no change to the scout suit there will be nothing stopping scouts from stacking hp and running as pseudo-assault suits. This is why (among other reasons) the Assault role needs to be defined by it's gank not it's tank. Give Assault suits a damage push that's native to the suit. Nerfing scouts will no more make the Assault viable than nerfing Logi will make the assault viable. Even nerfting both will just mean that the heavy suits become the only worth while option. Assault suits need both love and uniqueness, Without making them excel within a niche (LW dps output) they will remain in contention with too many other suits because of their current status as 'mid-range generalists'. Revisiting balance after the assault suits get the touch ups they require will, in my view, be more effective than altering the scouts (or logis) before we know what changes will ultimately come to the assault suits. Cheers, Cross Unfortunately, if you had done more than just skim through this thread, you would have read my proposal that assaults should take the role of high regeneration rate and this would in fact help in their role of "continuous attack." This is would not be a nerf, it is re-balancing.
I honestly have not read the whole thread, I read the OP, quoted it and responded to it.
That being said I deeply disagree with the premise that the niche of the assault should be a high eHP one, regeneration based or otherwise. Assault eHP should be mid range, for more details on this premise check out the thread by Fox Gaden.
gustavo acosta wrote:To suggest that Scouts are currently in a good spot for their would be an understatement, they are in fact excelling in all roles. Heavies only take the role of damage and hp tanking, I mean they do have regenerative but currently they equal the assault. Preventing Scouts from excelling at said assault role is also important, because it perpetuates balance.
Honestly I have not seen any good idea put together on how to stop scouts from doing the assault role beyond limiting the suit's capabilities to certain weapons, or certain amounts of hp. Though this is a simple way of prevention of said abuse it is unlikely to occur considering CCP's pattern of re-balancing the game. I understand candidates tend to say things in order to keep the majority happy, in this case scouts, however I do not approve of you brushing off my idea as a simple "Nurf da scout," thread, as this is how you answered.
I should know I'm a scout...
I brushed nothing off nor am I attempting to pander in any way, you may check my posting history all the back to closed beta if you would like, the point I made - which quite frankly you have not directly addressed - is that both of the medium frames will need balancing regardless. That being the case further changes to the scout (or the heavy honestly) prior to the first polish pass on both the Logi and the Assault is in fact bad practice; to wit, what is balanced now will not be balanced then, and what is balanced then will not be known until we have more information about what "then" is actually comprised of.
There is no amount of scout (or heavy) nerfing that will give the assault a proper niche or role in its current state. Yes nerfing other suits could make the assault more prominent but one suit being the most prominent (regardless of what suit that is) does not indicate high quality balance, in fact it definitively indicates a lack of balance parity unless each niche/role has been defined meaningfully as an incomparable. Right now in Dust that is unfortunately not the case, we have for the most part one niche/role which composes most of the actual game play, the role of "slayer".
No suit can be the best slayer as long as slayer is the best role, otherwise we're just creating something new for the FotM crowd to chase (something I'm deeply opposed to, again feel free to check my posting history all the way back to closed beta, I'm am not a fan of FotM).
If you'd care to discuss the concepts herein directly I remain, as usual, completely open to that 
Let us, however, be clear; at no time did I suggest "scouts are in a good place" as a blanket catch all stance.
Such a stance is far too simplistic to be accurate, for one thing the scout racial types are not equivalent and should not be painted with the same brush (much like happened during the logi witch hunt days of the broken CalLogi Extender bonus).
The Minja and Amarr both need a more functional level of role definition/performance, just like essentially all 8 racial medium frames do.
In fact I think changes to the scout line are most certainly called for (look here) but they require other changes first.
Continued in part 2
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2014.06.28 16:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
part 2
Cross Atu wrote:EDIT: Point of clarity; My responses are made in light of the impending balance pass to Assaults and Logistics.
My assumed results of those passes in summery are as follows;
- Normalization, or near normalization of medium frame high and low slots by meta level and race
- Normalization, or near normalization of medium frame native attributes by meta and race.
- Addition of proper LW fittings and damage bonuses (by race) to the Assault frame
- Enhancement of the Logi bonus to equipment fittings
- Addition of the requirement for Logi suits to fill all equipment slots to make a valid fitting
With these changes, which are already needed in the current game state, in place the proposed changes to scouts seem to have no clearly problematic role/balance implications.
This is an general/simple example of what could serve as a first pass on the medium racial frames. With this done we can then let some testing and data collection happen on the live servers. After that we can assess the state of each racial heavy, scout, and medium to make the further adjustments which will almost certainly be necessary.
But until then we won't really know what those adjustments are. Not acknowledging that effect, the implications of connected changes, has been a glaring shortfall in CCPs balance method up until CCP Rattati took point.
I very much do not want to see balance methodology backslide into its prior, deeply flawed, form.
Hence, by extension, I am opposed to this proposal at this time (and even if it weren't at this time I'd likely still find the idea of seeking assault suit balance by focusing on making them higher eHP a dubious method from a conceptual standpoint I think it violates their niche making them overlap with everything else too much for a medium dps frame).
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Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2014.06.28 20:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:I never suggested that assaults should have high eHP, I suggested that the mid-range of the assault's eHP should regenerate quicker because it will outline their role. As I have stated this is not a nerf this is a change. Nerf=something is OP make it weaker, buff=something is UP make it better, change=there is an inconsistency in the game that needs addressing. The inconsistency in scouts is that they are apparently "not supposed to be able to tank effectively" however their innate regeneration rewards them to do so. If assaults, and probably medium frames considering they share identical stats, were able to do this they could fulfill their role on the battlefield.
As stated in my prior post I don't conceptually support the method of raising Assault eHP as a way to define/improve their role at this time. As per this thread I think there are other aspects which should be touched on prior to any look at altering the eHP of the Assault line.
gustavo acosta wrote:This is only one idea, but I have yet to see any other more applicable ideas that would work for the manner in which CCP balances this game. This includes the whole "force logi to fill equipment," which I am against because it limits innovation of the logi suit. I believe that the role of suits should be made obvious, however I do not believe we should baby the players of this game by forcing them to run their suit in a way that coincides with their role rather than their choice. That being said if a player does attempt to do a role outside of intended the attempt should not out-perform the suit to which said role is intended. See the above linked thread for not only more applicable ideas but the reasons why they are more applicable even if some aspects of them are functionally less than ideal.
gustavo acosta wrote:I also never suggested this should be the only change made to the scout suit it is only the inconsistency that I had noticed one day when trying to tank scout, well succeeding. If scouts are supposed to have low Hp then why does their regeneration rate have to be so high? But back to assault, I believe assault suits should get better bonuses that would define their role deeper, however this thread is not for that. This thread is a suggestion for said adjustments, and would in fact give the assault a niche for use, though said niche has not even been defined by you. I have also acknowledged in this thread that the Amarr and Minmatar scouts' role would have to be more defined, or subjected to different less drastic changes, in order for said change to work. (Cross Atu,no offense but you still seem fairly ignorant when it comes to what I am actually proposing, and yoursolutionsseemlikeobviousthingsandreallyprovidenothingconcrete)
I did not mean to imply that you were stating this was a stand alone or magic bullet fix. If such implication was given by my posts please allow me to clarify that now. I do not at this time, nor any prior time, mean to imply that you were stating the OP was the only fix needed.
Having cleared that up allow me to reiterate, I do not believe altering Assault eHP balance should be the first step to improving the class. They are the Light Weapon masters and should, within their racial specificity, be able to get the highest optimum use out of their related Light Weapons. Giving the Assault role a focus on 'gank' rather than 'tank' and aspecting that role within racial tones creates a role wide balance philosophy while maintaining internal racial diversity.
Further it is important to define terms;
- HP - Hit Points, Brick Tank, Buffer Tank; this is the raw total suit life.
- eHP - Effective Hit Points; this is more complex and comprises nuanced things such as visibility, speed, damage reduction, repair rate, et al.
Scouts should indeed be low HP, but that does not mean they have to be the lowest on each aspect of eHP.
Assaults should be mid range on eHP, but that does not mean they must be 100% middle of the road on HP (indeed at present they have better native HP than both Scouts and Logi).
All of that debate is beside the point however, at least when it comes to what statements I am making so I will reiterate the fundamental to be certain I am making stance clear (because there seems to, perhaps, be some confusion here).
TL;DR - Do not change the HP or eHP of Assaults in any way until after their gank (i.e. optimal damage output and potential) has been given the overhaul which (in my understanding) it so desperately needs.
The Assault role should be an attacking one, and it's niche benefits should aid in bringing the pain, not surviving the pain. Revisit the situation visa vie Assault/Scout eHP after we've seen the effects of assault damage buffs.
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Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2014.06.28 21:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:Thanks for clarifying Cross Atu, though I do not agree that assaults should be focused on damage output, because of the TTK issue it might bring I understand where you're coming from. I would also make it a point to remind that the assault suit is not the best in any form of eHP, because it is the second most visible, weakest (because lolscouttank), has no damage reduction. Also, I believe if scouts are able to perform the role of invisibility, and speed, and heavies HP tank, and devastating attacks, logistics medic, and intel(which needs to be somwhat buffed I believe but that's a different topic). The assault should play a role beyond just 25% more damage "IF" you use your racial weapon, in this case durability/regeneration.(assumption made from past changes to the game)
It seems we differ conceptually somewhat here, but that's legitimate and I'm totally open to discussing the various pros and cons of differing conceptual stances. That's the best way, in my experience, to hone in on quality balance.
I'm not going to dispute your concerns regarding TTK, in fact I'm of the school at present that leans towards TTK game wide getting something of an increase. Honestly this is part of why I want the Assault to gain a damage bonus first, so that game wide balance could be scaled with such a bonus in mind rather than polished and then re-broken.
gustavo acosta wrote:I believe that medium frames in general should be the second best in terms of durability, heavies being first, because they are unable to do their respective roles without durabilty(i.e. attack and logistics) , buffing their regeneration rate alone would help a great deal. I added that scouts should also be affected by this change because currently they are abusing the ability to regen their health quickly by tanking suits.
I tend to agree regarding the place of medium frames on the durability spectrum. Upon reflection I should likely elaborate a bit more on one key point. When I say give the assaults their gank bonuses first, that is very much what I mean.
I am not dismissive of the idea that further changes with regards to eHP may be called for before we find high quality balance, however since I do believe the assaults require a means of making themselves the Light Weapon specialists and that over all role power will have to include both gank and tank, I'm firmly in favor of doing the damage buffs upfront and then assessing the situation. What and how much change will or will not be required for the assault et al at that stage will be something I don't see how we can answer until the other changes go through. So while I am saying that I don't think we should touch this now, I am not saying "no never, this way is perfect".
gustavo acosta wrote:Unless the damage output given to assaults is monstrous, then scouts will still be rewarded more for running assaults than the actual assault suit for doing so.
There's a scout related proposal which also has some possible bearing on this question, the quick upshot is that it moves passive buffs into being model buffs such that for scouts to use their main role niche they cannot be stacking all their high/lows with tank.
Looking forward to the continuing conversation.
Cheers,
Cross
P.S. ~ Held this till the post script to avoid pulling the thread too far off topic, but I agree with you generally speaking that having forced fittings is very bad policy. Sadly it's the only way I've seen thus far to give the support logi the wiggle room it needs to actually become viable. At present a "slayer" logi can out do an assault while at the same time that very same racial logi suit spec'ed for support is sluggish squishy and even more expensive (both SP and ISK) than the assault suits it's going to consistently lose against. I don't like required fittings, but something needs to be done so that the support logi can be buffed properly to have a chance at ISK viability and proper SP risk vs reward scaling without at the same time turning it into a better slayer suit than the assault.
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2014.07.01 15:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:The things is, I fundamentally disagree with increasing assault suit damage. The TTK benchmark should be set by assaults. I agree with this stance generally speaking and have outlined above both why I agree and what this is an important motive to give Assaults a "gank" bonus as part of their role, and do so prior to making other changes to the line.
Varoth Drac wrote:That is what is so clever about the current assault suit bonuses, they increase the effectiveness of the rifles without directly increasing damage. Giving assault suits a base damage increase seems to me a very ugly and messy way of improving them. Too many bonuses feel like a patchwork of fixes rather than a coherent set of suit perks.
Things like the racially valuable Amarr Assault bonus are great for flavor and honestly if the other suits could be a little more deeply in that vein I'd really support that.
The above having been said it seems unlikely that the current bonuses, even with a touch up, are enough on their own.
If they were we'd see the Assault line performing much more effectively on the field and we'd see far more Amarr Assaults deployed (due to their more specific bonus).
Seemingly the facts point to there being a need for further Assault love beyond where we are at present, hence this thread
I conceptually disagree with the notion that giving the Assault Dropsuit a role defined by optimized damage potential is either ugly or messy. Their niche is assaulting, and clearly their role is not tank based as that's covered by the Heavy frames (both Sent and Manndo). They are also clearly Light Weapon specialists, and CCP has stated they won't be getting the 2x LW the Commando has. This leaves us with bringing up their potential optimum dps with (at least their racial) LWs. How we go about doing this can be discussed further of course (and whether or not the medium frame line as a whole needs a more confirmed survivability base line, which it likely does), but I honestly see little room in the current inter-frame balance of Dust to define the assault role niche without use of damage optimizing skill buffs. (After all even the current buffs are there to optimize damage, regardless of how well they're doing that).
Varoth Drac wrote:The key to buffing assaults is in their base stats, there isn't room to change things with bonuses or slots without opening a can of worms and making a mess.
Simply alter the base stats on the assault suits directly opens a can of worms and makes quite a mess, especially when it comes to altering their eHP in the present state of the game.
A few highlights of that, Scouts need internal balance polish, roughly half of them aren't really viable for high level play.
Support logistics need major love, when looking at ISK and risk vs reward scaling their rarely viable outside the hands of a few seasoned vets and they certainly offer a vanishingly small window for new players to enter the role, main the role, and do so while not running at a loss (esp for long enough to grind the millions of SP needed to run effective gear, or the proto suits required to make some gear worth running in a competitive context).
To make matters worse, at present the "slayer logi" can still run a better slayer build than the assault most of the time, but the support logi is currently in fittings which will usually perish vs an equivalent assault.
Buffing the assault base stats such as regen, prior to addressing other issues, creates a bigger mess to clean up with regards to medium frame balance, as well as racial scout balance.
Something not derived from the base stats needs to be looked into as a method of closing the power gap prior to altering base stats (and any alteration of base stats cannot happen to the Assault alone, the entire medium frame line needs to be looked at because the entire line is weak at it's role right now).
Varoth Drac wrote:Surely it would be wise to buff assault regen to near scout levels first (maybe with a minor scout regen nerf as well ), to address the clear problem with regen mods (i.e. why fit them on assaults when they are free with scouts?) and see how it goes before jumping straight in with massive overhauls and potentially throwing things way out of balance again.
As I have outlined above, it is specifically conceptually unwise to buff assault regen in the current state of things.
As was highlighted in my conversation with gustavo acosta it is an idea which could do with a look once other steps are taken but for many reasons isn't optimal as a first wave solution to the current situation.
Using eHP as the vanguard method for bringing the assault role into it's proper place creates a deeper imbalance within the medium frame line, forces the assault and commando roles to overlap even more than they already do, muddies the waters of the already imperfect internal balance of scouts and even (albeit slightly) brings the assault closer to playing the type of breaching and defense roles as the Sent (and in a somewhat similar manner with the assault dropping back from the fight to regen, while the heavy would be dropping back to reload).
As I've been detailing above and in my prior posts there are specific reasons why altering assault eHP balance at this stage, prior to addressing other aspects in need of a rework, would have the potential to feed imbalance. It's worth looking at again later, but it's the wrong solution currently, there's simply too much indirect harm it could do.
Varoth Drac wrote:Hasn't everyone been saying over and over again, to achieve balance, small steps at a time are best?
Yes, small steps are the best method, however that being said not all steps are equal and not all easy changes are conceptually small steps when it comes to balance.
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Cross
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